It was less than a month ago that I posted this about comments, and yet we seem to have come round to the same position again in this post on NanoStudio.

Everyone is entitled to have their view. That’s not the issue. It is about how that view is expressed and the impact that it causes.

I have already lost contact with one developer due to the negativity expressed around their work in the comments here, and I can’t say that I blame them either. Who would want to work with a site where your applications are constantly attacked, and the knock on effect to Palm Sounds.

I don’t want this site to be the place that developers avoid because all they get is people telling them where they’ve failed.

I don’t want to have to turn off comments or get to the point where I have to police and delete comments, so if you want to comment in a reasonable way and can make you point without condemning someone’s work, please continue to do so.

However, if all you want to do is tell people how much they’ve failed because they haven’t delivered the feature request you wanted, then do it somewhere else.

http://static.evernote.com/noteit.js Clip to Evernote

44 comments

  1. i know its hard for you because you are sitting in the middle,
    but developers should face the opinions of their customers.
    are developers that afraid of sales going down because someone disliked what ever app and told evryone about it???
    come on, this is nerd kindergarten!

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  2. hm, why dont you just delete the a,e,i,o & u's , if you think the comment is to harsh, out of the harsh comment?
    like boing boing does; its still readable, if u want to;
    that way you dont have to play watch your language police …

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  3. Ashley ….As people have opinions so will they express them in ways that are sometimes rude and mean. In a perfect world all comments would be positive and/or of constructive criticism but in a public forum that's just not likely to happen.
    I appreciate your effort to fight off the uglies and since your first plea to be kinder I have made the effort to keep any nastiness out of my comments, so a friendly reminder by you can work for some. However the point of discussion of an apps pros and cons is a good thing and I appreciate the negative comments as well as the positive so I hope you do not go back to monitoring the comments before publishing and beg the commenters to keep the tone down enough to not be rude or insulting to the developers but still informative and helpful to both user and developer.

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  4. This seems to be a problem with lots of music sites, and is also why I stopped reading comments on kvr-audio.com. Developers do read these sites, and we do try to implement the features that people ask for. We definitely want to hear feedback. But, there's no reason to be a dick. If you were talking to a developer face to face, would you treat them that disrespectfully? Just because an application doesn't have one or two features you want doesn't make it useless. Lets keep the discourse civil so we all can benefit.

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  5. I Agree Ashley, Nothing Justifies being rude about someone else's work.

    I have a suggestion that may help the problem a bit:

    Under the Blogger Comment Settings you can have a 'comment forum message' for your readers to see every time they post a comment. Your's currently reads, “Thanks for reading Palm Sounds, comments are always welcome” Maybe you could throw in some kind of a polite warning or request to be polite…

    Just an little idea that may help…

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  6. This place isn't that bad at all… been on the net lately?

    Anyone noticed that you post about a LOT of apps that are really rather weak and people almost always say NOTHING?

    I sure have. Bought all sorts of useless apps because I jumped the gun here. Not like getting a refund is ever in that cards, is it? In retrospect, many of these posts seem like favors to developers, without any critical component to them whatsoever.

    I really can't believe this post.

    Your site will be meaningless if you keep this tact up. As it is, I have to go elsewhere to get the real scoop on nearly everything I find out about here. There's rarely a comment here you don't find on iTunes, and often much more intensely on iTunes.

    Get a real and tell these lily-livered developers to grow up.

    Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    Good heavens. Welcome to the internet.

    Folks, if we end up needing a place to speak freely and set some of these developer clowns straight, I'll set it up lickety-split. I might get started today.

    These whiners will learn, the easy way or the hard way, the customer's always right.

    P.S.

    I hope to heck and back this doesn't involve Fairlight, who should be issuing refunds yesterday.

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  7. I'm 100% against censorship. It's like the comments recently made by British liberals against those expressed by the British Nationalist Party ie they don't want the BNP to have any platform for freedom of speech at all. But this is wrong, not right. It's a double standard. By shutting up the BNP, you are in effect doing the very same that the BNP would want to do to you. So who is better now?

    You should allow all people to express their opinion whether you agree with it or not. If you are an intelligent enough person you can change people's views through debate, not shutting them out. The latter is not the way to go about things.

    As you know, I'm a developer (or one half of a developer- the other half doesn't want to go near XCode again! LOL!). We've got one app in the appstore, and despite it's only 59p, we've had all kinds of crap from people, but hey, I think most of them are probably right- we could have done a whole lot better- but whatttayerknow, 950 sales of apps, and between us we are only £350 better off? (and that doesn't include any overheads- like the dreaded Apple Developer yearly surcharge!).

    If a developer gets miffed, well I'm sorry, but I think they have to be in the wrong game. The winners in this game are those who can take it on the chin, not cry into their beers. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that is really how it stands. Life (mostly) sucks, then you die. It really is that simple.

    I presume this post is aimed at Mr loop? Well so what. Either ignore him or challenge him, he's quite entitled to his opinions. It's positive that he is being negative- if you see what I mean? 🙂

    Now go fire up your iPad!

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  8. Well put tom

    And i suspect this is specifically to do with the moans about midi, and ipad support by nanostudio, and while i agree they mabe could have been put better i do think the poster had a point.

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  9. No ridiculous troll comment will ever stop the fact that I am a daily Palm Sounds reader and a daily Nanostudio user, and quite satisfied as well. Of course there are plenty of ways to make anything better… Not sure why people spend more time complaining than creating. Keep it up Palm and Blip.

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  10. Everybody should be aware of the Internet Fuckwad Theory from Penny Arcade :

    Normal person + Anonimity + Audience = Fuckwad

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

    If developpers stopped of left because of a few “fail” comments, all while ignoring the hundreds of “keep up” comments next to it (because really there are way more positive comments here), they should simply leave the internet entirely, they clearly cannot face their critics.

    Have you seen how much negative comments there is on the internet about the new Monotribe from Korg not having MIDI either? Or not being able to modify the drum sounds? Is Korg affected by those comments? Probably not because there's way more people who expressed interests in the Monotribe and will buy it. That doesn't mean people should stop complaining that Korg never updated the KP3 past 2.0 (and the KP3 still has plenty of bugs).

    As an another example I want to bring up Michael Bay, do you think he cares about the millions of “fails” written on the internet about his movies?

    My hats off to Blip for responding in the other thread.

    In the meantime, no words from lolstationzebra? 😀

    … and if people hates 2X so much, they should complain to Apple. Have you noticed how the text in the ads looks great in 2X, but not the text in the apps? 🙂

    Ashley, I appreciate you take the time to express your feelings about this, but I believe you can trust the readers of your blog to take care of the “fuckwads” trolling your comments.

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  11. hm, im just thinking about a positive way to tell someone that I think his software sucks:
    well its useless to me, but I really like what you did with the ui color patterns?
    sorry, but im not talking to a 5 year old child.

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  12. I'm not on Facebook and hope I won't be required to just to post here every now and then. Can't you be anonymous on Facebook anyway.

    I have stopped visiting a few forums because of a douche or two who were always shooting at people for little to no reason. That got old very fast but people are entitled to their opinions. I appreciate all the comments on here and often don't think much about the developers reading because most already have forums for their products on their own web sites. I like that if there's something I happen to be interested in that I don't have, I can most likely get an idea of it here. I wanna know if somebody thinks it sucks but I also want to know why it sucks to them(lacking features, bugs,…) just like I want to know why they may love it.

    In a perfect world I'd have my own big red button to digitally stop people from typing dumb shit for me to see. Really the last of my concerns though. Seems developers would appreciate the instant feedback the Internet provides, regardless of it's tone.

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  13. I don't like censorship per se, but I actually agree with Ashley's point of view. He's not saying you can't criticize, he's saying keep it polite and constructive. I happen to agree.

    The crazy thing is that the best app's take the harshest criticism a lot of the time. They are so good that people take it for granted how difficult they can be to make, how much work it is to add even simple features. If people understood how complicated coding something like Nanostudio, iMS-20 etc Is they would be slower on the trigger for sure.

    I for 1 have been an outspoken critic of trolling, offensive, cowardly comments on many electronic music blogs, and will continue to be in the future. I hope you don't back down Ashley. Common decency, empathy, and thoughtful discussion need to make a comeback.

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  14. 'Normal person + Anonimity + Audience = Fuckwad' – disagree! That kind of implies we're all fuckwads.

    'Seemingly normal person + passive aggressiveness + frustration issues + Anonymity = Fuckwad'

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  15. @Anonymous

    Its just a list of the ingredients needed to create a fuckwad, I didn't meant to say we all are.

    But I agree with your correction, I would maybe add “strongly insecure” in the equation 🙂

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  16. As a developer or producer of any work be that music, film, games, paintings, actor, or apps, you have to grow a very thick skin. People will hate on you. The app won't do X. The app will cost too much, but still less than what you'd pay if you bought yourself and your mate a pint in your local. The App Store review system doesn't help developers as we can't respond. At least on Palm Sounds developers can respond. All I ask is if you have a problem or suggestion you ask and I'll do my best to help. Ashley, don't change it.

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  17. The last comment said it all for me…. Respect..

    That's not about agreeing with everything or not telling people how you feel, but freedom of speech works only if we respect each others rights to it. If people are aggressive or rude, they instantly lose that respect from me. They might well have a valuable opinion but they have presented it in such a way as Im not interested in it anymore. For sure the BNP have an important point but throwing insults and punches won't get them heard buy me…

    For sure developers should know what people think, but the costumer isn't always right… Fact, how many times have I brought something that doesn't do what I want, loads but it doesn't make it a fail, and when we clearly know what the limitation are, e.g midi or not iPad then it's kinda hard luck actually.

    I do think we should also remember that the £500 latest synth you buy rarely gets an update or better buttons or a nicer feel to the keyboard, you get what you get, or you cough up the £500 to buy the new version which does…

    So keep up the good work, let's say what we think but let's do it in a non personal and aggressive way, like we would in a public forum, all those who think they no better, prove it!

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  18. @ bruno afonso: if you are afraid of anonymous ppl – never go out to the street or a bar, and always tell your mommy if you are going somewhere & with whom; zombie said: brains!

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  19. It is your house. You decide whether you want to tolerate it or not. Personally, I will stop reading the comments if you continue to let rude pricks piss on the conversations. The free speech argument is silly. Jerks can start their own blogs to moan all they want. Forums exist where anything goes. You don't have to let them do it in your blog. They will not stop just because you ask nicely. Please choose civil standards.

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  20. Just switch off Name only/anonymous login. They may still trash talk, but at least you know who to ban 🙂

    The most hilarious thing about the IoS 'revolution' has been the new breed of spoilt brats, whose sense of entitlement is inversely proportional to the amount they spend on an application.

    Like, for instance, when you get some asshat moan on that they spent some obscenely small amount of money for application X, and why the hell isn't that thing that he wants (obviously, it's always a HE) in there, YOU SUCK etc, whilst obviously obviously to the irony of complaining about cheap applications made by small teams, that they're playing on the £500 toy that their parents probably bought them anyway.

    Well, that, plus this is the internet. Where else are sociopaths going to spend their time? 🙂

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  21. Since when, before iOS, have we been able to buy software (especially on the cheap), send a polite email to the developers, and have them implement our ideas in massive and frequent updates? Any chance of me letting Microsoft know that I don't appreciate how bullet points randomly change size and getting that fixed? On the other hand, through polite communication I have affected a bunch of apps for the better. iOS devs have got to be some of the nicest people on Earth. They can be sensitive, but overall, good people.
    I have run across a few idiots, but their apps usually have no redeeming value and are trying to pass for what they are not.

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  22. @Darron Weis
    “Since when, before iOS, have we been able to buy software (especially on the cheap), send a polite email to the developers, and have them implement our ideas in massive and frequent updates?”

    Since forever, its always been like that.

    There always was cheap software available on AMIGA, Atari, DOS, Windows, Linux, OSX, etc … and its always been possible to send comments or requests to developpers. I have often done it in the past, and sometimes saw my suggestions being integrated.

    The Appstore has made it easier for devs to charge only 99cents for an app, but there was a lot of software available for 1$ before the Appstore, Apple didn't invent selling software for cheap 🙂

    You should tell Microsoft about those bullet points, they do have a suggestion inbox.

    Like

  23. I like the idea of using disqus for this type of issue. I usually post anonymously because I dont feel like using my blogger account here, but if using twitter or facebook connected account would make me less likely to post something crass or rude (I am one of the few that is actually nicer online because in real life Im kind of harsh). however I do think that developers need to listen to the angered masses and try to respond to everything from reasonable to semi-reasonable comments. obviously they cannot deal with everything people say, but sometimes I feel like developers dont care what their more demanding customers are asking for. I have dropped as much as $150 (apprx) on a single developer, I feel like I have the right to tell them what they think about their product, weather its nice or mean weather they want to hear it or not.

    Most of these commenting issues seem to be cultural differences to me, I have been in fights while traveling abroad for speaking in what some would consider normal everyday language in other countries. In the same breath I have been offended by what some consider no big deal at all. This is an online discussion, people will be offended for no reason at all, regularly. Yeah I know its a lot to deal with, but I think if you decide to become a developer you choose to take what comes with it.

    critics of all kinds. Lets face it everyone wants to be heard when it comes to these issues.

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  24. actually johnnyg0, before apple, mobile apps were mostly not 1$, I paid 16$ for bhajis loops and 30$ for documents to go for my palm. I know blackberry apps were similarly priced. I never found any useful or interesting apps for my palm for under 10$ before 4 years ago. I am pretty sure apple is responsible for the 1$ app.

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  25. @Anonymous

    I paid the same price for Bhajis Loops, and for Korg iMS-20 too (while it was on sale). In the past 15 years, I have purchased many programs for 1$ to 5$, before Apple and even before mobile platforms (yes, I am that old hehehe).

    “I never found any useful or interesting apps for my palm for under 10$ before 4 years ago.”

    Good software costs money, the same is true on IOS. Just look at the apps listed on the Palm Sounds directory (in the top bar), there isn't much apps going on for 1$ anymore, I counted 14 1$ apps out of 149, with 31 apps going for 10$ and more. Granted not every apps are listed here, but most major ones are so its still a good example.

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  26. Those invoking some kind of “free speech” rational for talking trash are completely wrong. As mentioned by someone else above, “freedom of speech” does not apply when it comes to privately operated outlets (like 99% of the internet). You have the right to start up a blog and say what you want, but have no rights when it comes to someone else's blog.

    Palm Sounds is a place where I go on a daily basis to hear about all the software I can use to create music on mobile devices. The Nanostudio forums are another place I go to hear about where Nanostudio is headed and report bugs. I have my own blog for my opinions.

    I would never come to Palm Sounds to trash a developer. What is the point? The point is trolling. Loop is a self admitted troll whose sole intention is to perpetuate ill will towards an honest and hard working developer in effort to get what they want. To publicly and repeatedly bash someone for not implementing features is childish. I don't come to Palm Sounds to listen to childish people cry in public. It isn't a justifiable excuse to say “the internet is rude … deal with it”.

    Believe it or not, there are some places on the internet where it is not acceptable to be a D-bag, and polite and informative discussions are had. Palm sounds is usually pretty good. Sure, some posts are left to die with no replies. That is because Ashley posts dozens of times a day.

    Lastly, the argument that software should be targeted at a mass audience to be successfully marketed at .99 is just crap. I had no problem paying Blip $15 for Nanostudio. I've created my own pluggins and know that there is a ton of hard work that goes into designing this stuff. I like Nanostudio I also gifted it to a friend just get Blip another $15.

    MY VOTE = If people can't be respectful, then you may need to get some moderators. That is not uncalled for. If you want developers to support you by throwing download codes your way, doing interviews, and such then keep Palm Sounds a positive place …

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  27. but its also frustrating if you really have bad experience with a developper that does absolutely nothing to fix bugs and gives no support but does anounce their new stuff on here making al kinds of promises and you mention your previous experience your suddenly bashing the dev

    Like

  28. com·ment   
    [kom-ent] Show IPA
    –noun
    1.
    a remark, observation, or criticism: a comment  about a crapp app.
    2.
    gossip; talk: His frequent absences gave rise to comment .
    3.
    a criticism or interpretation, often by implication or suggestion: The play is a comment  on modern society.
    4.
    a note in explanation, expansion, or criticism of a passage in a book, article, or the like; annotation.
    5.
    explanatory or critical matter added to a text.
    6.
    Also called rheme. Linguistics . the part of a sentence that communicates new information about the topic. Compare topic def. 4 .

    Like

  29. Why do we have MIDI in most apps now?

    Comments!

    Censor freedom of speech and lose a whole lot more.

    Sensitive 1 Man Band Developers taking people's $$ and making promises you can't keep….

    You ain't gotta worry about me giving you constructive criticism no more, I'll just one star you in the app store.

    If your app is over $5.00, I'll pass on it so I don't feel played if it ends up being crap.

    I already got a list of my Favorite Devs and that's who i'll spend my money with strictly from here on out.

    Like

  30. i dont think anybody is here to trash developers;
    but the ios platform is still in its baby-shoes and there are so many 1trick ponys in the appshop or apps that don't deliver as advertised …
    so a place for musicians to speak their minds is needed

    where do all these strong opinions about apps come from?
    thats easy to answer, because users use them;
    and some of them can see the lost potential in them; so what is seen as hating on devs is just unanswered love for their creation.

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  31. Personally, I think a lot of this is whinging. Sticks 'n' stones and all that. Seriously, suck it up guys. For every one dipshit, there are many others who appreciate

    If a developer/anyone cannot the level of sheer rudeness and idiocy of teh internets, do something else (it's been like this since '93 so nothing new)

    …but most of the trollage here is met with flame-bait so who's to blame? Trolls can be dealt with by effective subsequential posts; radical waving of teh ban-hammer can sometimes encourage trollage…

    But, this touchy-feely crap of 'play nice, be positive' is a load of PC crap. Not all criticism has to be positive, nor does it have to be rude…but if some developer wants to run away because some spoilt eejit 14-year-old says nasty things, good riddance

    Blip responded quite eloquently and if some d!ckhead wants to rant, let 'em, you can choose to ignore it

    In the words of the great David Lee Roth:

    You gotta roll with the punches to get to what's real

    And in the words of my dearly-departed grandmother:

    Empty vessels make the most sound

    Like

  32. Personally, I think a lot of this is whinging. Sticks 'n' stones and all that. Seriously, suck it up guys. For every one dipshit, there are many others who appreciate If a developer/anyone cannot the level of sheer rudeness and idiocy of teh internets, do something else (it's been like this since '93 so nothing new)…but most of the trollage here is met with flame-bait so who's to blame? Trolls can be dealt with by effective subsequential posts; radical waving of teh ban-hammer can sometimes encourage trollage…But, this touchy-feely crap of 'play nice, be positive' is a load of PC crap. Not all criticism has to be positive, nor does it have to be rude…but if some developer wants to run away because some spoilt eejit 14-year-old says nasty things, good riddanceBlip responded quite eloquently and if some d!ckhead wants to rant, let 'em, you can choose to ignore itIn the words of the great David Lee Roth:You gotta roll with the punches to get to what's realAnd in the words of my dearly-departed grandmother:Empty vessels make the most sound

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  33. Unkind comments are unfair to the developers and to dialog in general.

    Perhaps you can enable a “Like” style feature to give thumbs up or down to comments to use some social pressure.

    I have no negitive views about pulling the plug on especially noxious posters. Although some of these “Trolls” are now posting under multible Identities / accounts so 86ing someone will not keep them out.

    I have to say on other boards (bars / clubs) that 86ing individuals has inproved overall discourse / atmosphere. There is a difference between discussion of politics and Mobile Music as far as free speech goes.

    Like

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